Dear Chiara,
Clearly you are after some "sensational numbers". You can easily find them on internet. However I have few things to say about your mail(s)and comments on the Deaths at the Borders database.
* Do you believe in the States and their official numbers? This database did NOT compiled with the numbers given by the states. In 5 countries, 13 field researchers visited about 600 towns/cities and collected data from the civil registries, graveyards, courts and coroners' offices. There is a big difference between getting 'some numbers' from the states and putting them together to create a database AND checking millions of records, talking with every person that you can find or triple checking every piece of info you collect. If you know a better way to collect data, please tell me!
* what good is it to provide such very low numbers? We DIDN'T provide numbers, we created a database on migrant deaths at the southern EU borders. I sent two mails to this list and another one directly to you about this database. Every time, I asked to read the methodology page where the lead researcher of this sub-project, Tamara Last, explains in detail how and why this database was created. It is fascinating for me that instead of reading this 2-3 page info, you are accusing the database for "helping to hide the real scale of the massacre"!
* Referring to the IOM numbers: I really wonder if you read the sources and reports at all, except copy-pasting the numbers. a) IOM numbers on missing migrants project are based on Fortress Europe blog and UNITED database. They are NOT IOM numbers and I explained the issue about these two other databases and our approach. b) Members of this research, Thomas Spijkerboer and Tamara Last contributed to the IOM report (Fatal Journeys) you referred as a source in your previous mail. Are you aware that, you are referring to a report to which our members contributed in order to criticise our database?
* Being realistic: It is MORE than realistic to create a database based on evidence which has a limited time and geographical coverage with a clear methodology and approach. This database is NOT aiming to give you the total number of the migrants who died or lost in the Mediterranean Sea. (A page in our website, called Methodology, is very interesting. You should read it, really...)
* what good is to skip the two deadliest years, 2014 and 2015? A simple question; how can you collect data from 2014 and 2015 if your field research is done between March 2014- February 2015? How can you collect data of 2015 from a (lets say) local Spanish town if you already have visited this town in August 2014 and checked all records from 1990 to 2013? Will you go back to this town? and what about other 599 towns? Again; if you are looking for some sensational numbers, which also includes tragedies of 2014-215, please google it!
And one more thing: after releasing the database, the research project received quite some media attention. And until now, we didn't receive any question (even from the right wing or anti-immigration minded media) such as "why the numbers are low" except migrant solidarity mailing lists like this one. It looks like the message was clear enough even for The Sun newspaper journalists. Then I wonder where this problem of misunderstanding/not understanding/ refusing-to-understand comes from?
Have a nice weekend,
Orcun
Do you believe in the States and their official numbers? And what good is it to provide such very low numbers, inferior by thousands to other sources including the IOM? Does not it help the governments hiding the real scale of the massacre? Most other sources do actually include the missing amongst the dead, which may not be methodologically perfect but it is realistic, at least!! And what good is to skip the two deadliest years, 2014 and 2015? I would rather use sources that are more up to date. Please do not mention me that borderdeaths.org again.
Clearly you are after some "sensational numbers". You can easily find them on internet. However I have few things to say about your mail(s)and comments on the Deaths at the Borders database.
* Do you believe in the States and their official numbers? This database did NOT compiled with the numbers given by the states. In 5 countries, 13 field researchers visited about 600 towns/cities and collected data from the civil registries, graveyards, courts and coroners' offices. There is a big difference between getting 'some numbers' from the states and putting them together to create a database AND checking millions of records, talking with every person that you can find or triple checking every piece of info you collect. If you know a better way to collect data, please tell me!
* what good is it to provide such very low numbers? We DIDN'T provide numbers, we created a database on migrant deaths at the southern EU borders. I sent two mails to this list and another one directly to you about this database. Every time, I asked to read the methodology page where the lead researcher of this sub-project, Tamara Last, explains in detail how and why this database was created. It is fascinating for me that instead of reading this 2-3 page info, you are accusing the database for "helping to hide the real scale of the massacre"!
* Referring to the IOM numbers: I really wonder if you read the sources and reports at all, except copy-pasting the numbers. a) IOM numbers on missing migrants project are based on Fortress Europe blog and UNITED database. They are NOT IOM numbers and I explained the issue about these two other databases and our approach. b) Members of this research, Thomas Spijkerboer and Tamara Last contributed to the IOM report (Fatal Journeys) you referred as a source in your previous mail. Are you aware that, you are referring to a report to which our members contributed in order to criticise our database?
* Being realistic: It is MORE than realistic to create a database based on evidence which has a limited time and geographical coverage with a clear methodology and approach. This database is NOT aiming to give you the total number of the migrants who died or lost in the Mediterranean Sea. (A page in our website, called Methodology, is very interesting. You should read it, really...)
* what good is to skip the two deadliest years, 2014 and 2015? A simple question; how can you collect data from 2014 and 2015 if your field research is done between March 2014- February 2015? How can you collect data of 2015 from a (lets say) local Spanish town if you already have visited this town in August 2014 and checked all records from 1990 to 2013? Will you go back to this town? and what about other 599 towns? Again; if you are looking for some sensational numbers, which also includes tragedies of 2014-215, please google it!
And one more thing: after releasing the database, the research project received quite some media attention. And until now, we didn't receive any question (even from the right wing or anti-immigration minded media) such as "why the numbers are low" except migrant solidarity mailing lists like this one. It looks like the message was clear enough even for The Sun newspaper journalists. Then I wonder where this problem of misunderstanding/not understanding/ refusing-to-understand comes from?
Have a nice weekend,
Orcun
Do you believe in the States and their official numbers? And what good is it to provide such very low numbers, inferior by thousands to other sources including the IOM? Does not it help the governments hiding the real scale of the massacre? Most other sources do actually include the missing amongst the dead, which may not be methodologically perfect but it is realistic, at least!! And what good is to skip the two deadliest years, 2014 and 2015? I would rather use sources that are more up to date. Please do not mention me that borderdeaths.org again.
Greetings comerades
Chiara
Hi Tom, The Human Costs of Border Control research project is not aiming to find the exact numbers. It is simply impossible. To do this, you must be able to track every human being in the Mediterranean sea in real time (many people are lost in the sea) and also know their intention (they can be fisherman, tourist etc, not only migrants). Within this research, we choose to collect official records (deaths certificates, coroner's reports, graveyard registrations etc.). Also database is covering only EU side of the Med Sea. For a more clear picture, North Africa and Turkey must be (and we are planing to) included to the database. As Marieke mentioned in a previous mail, we want to calculate a mortality rate, which will be compared with changes in European border policies. The aim of this database is to fill some of the gaps, and serve as a new, complementary resource to enable further analysis and research. But of course, when you collect that much information from the field, there are other ways to use the data. Thats why the database was made public, to let other researchers/institutions also use it in their work. Interactive visualisation that can be found on the home page of the website is for the public awareness purposes.Just one example (but very important) is identifying the dead migrants and helping their families to locate the body. A version which includes private info (such as name, DoB, nationality etc) will be shared with Red Cross and Red Crescent and to be included to their already existing missing people database. Public version (which is on the website) does not include these personal identification infos. About the numbers: Fortress Europe and United did (and doing) a great job. Today we have an estimation because of their work! But their databases are based on media and NGO reports and these reports may give different numbers than the real numbers. As Chiara wrote in her previous mail, in some cases survivors or media report 300 to 500 migrants in a boat, only 5-6 bodies are found by the authorities. We are trying to be careful about our messages to the media. We did not put focus to the numbers in our press release on purpose (but rather focused on identification). Of course it may be quoted in a wrong way but this is something that we (nobody) can do nothing about (except Kim Jong-un of course!). Until now, it looks like it worked. Media coverage about the database is not about the numbers as far as I could see. Best,Orcun
Hi Orcun
I would like to understand better the motivation for collecting statistics in this way ?
and to ask if you think there is not a danger that the lower figures could be taken into account and quoted by medias and possibly without the explanations that are given on the site
Thanks
Tom
Dear Chiara,
Please read the methodology page of the website;http://www.borderdeaths.org/?page_id=7
Your questions are answered in detail there...
Best,
Orcun
3188 deaths at the borders of Europe between 1990 and 2013? looks like a very conservative estimate! Maybe I haven't understood well?
The IOM estimate of total deaths at the borders of Europe is 22,400 bewtween 2000 and 2014. http://publications.iom.int/bookstore/free/FatalJourneys_CountingtheUncounted.pdf
Fortress Europe, blog of Italian journalist Gabriele del Grande, say 21.439 people at least died since 1988, the blog is updated until 30 June 2014,http://fortresseurope.blogspot.co.uk/
All estimates of migrants deaths only include cases that are reported by media, governmental or non-governmental organizations - the authors of the IOM report do state it is not a very good system, and the total numbers are certainly higher. The large majority of border deaths worldwide occur in the Med (75% according to IOM) but personally I am not sure the various estimates of deaths in the Sahara are at all realistic (1% according to IOM, I would not believe it for a second!) and deaths in the Sahara may be grossly under-estimated - they do not get reported by media, governments and NGOs.
ALL THESE BODY COUNTS DO NOT INCLUDE 2015, THE DEADLIEST YEAR EVER.
Finally, how do we count, since in the deadliest shipwreck there were '950' people on board, according to one of the survivors, '700' according to another and '800' according to most 'official' estimates, maybe they done a sum of the two previous numbers and divided, roughly, by 2? only 28 survived and very few bodies were found.
Chiara Lauvergnac
www.borderdeaths.org The Deaths at the Borders Database is the first collection of official, state-produced evidence on people who died while attempting to reach southern EU countries from the Balkans, the Middle East, and North & West Africa, and whose bodies were found in or brought to Europe. Each of the dots in the chart below corresponds to one dead migrant documented by local authorities in Italy, Malta, Spain, Gibraltar and Greece, from 1/1/1990 to 31/12/2013.Eine Datenbank für Grenztote ("Deaths at the Borders database") ist ab heute, 12. Mai 2015, unter folgendem link frei zugänglich:www.borderdeaths.org Sie wurde von Wissenschaftlern der Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam auf der Basis der Todesurkunden von Migranten erstellt, die in den Jahren 1990-2013 an den südlichen EU-Grenzen ums Leben gekommen sind. Die Datenbank bietet individualisierte Informationen über 3.188 Menschen, die ums Leben gekommen sind beim Versuch, aus dem Balkan, dem Nahen Osten, sowie Nord- und Westafrika die südlichen EU-Länder zu erreichen, und deren Leichen in diesen EU-Ländern geborgen bzw. dorthin gebracht wurden.